Using Blu-ray M-Disk as backup of last resort

(smyck.net)

76 points | by hukl 1 day ago

13 comments

  • robotmay 5 hours ago
    I debated doing this recently but ultimately spent a lot of money on an LTO-6 tape drive instead, just due to the cost efficiency over time for larger amounts of data. I justified it to myself as I needed to either expand my NAS or clear stuff off it, and the drive was the same price as buying two new HDDs to expand the NAS thanks to the obscene price inflation at the moment. As I’d likely need to further expand my NAS next year (I’m shooting a lot of photo and video) I think this works out a much more cost effective way of storing this data long term when I likely don’t need to access it much.
    • ciupicri 1 hour ago
      After reading reading the "Environmental and shipping specifications for LTO tape cartridges" [1] I came to the conclusion that tapes are not that great.

          Environmental   Allowable       Recommended 
          Factor          Storage         Storage
          Temperature     16 to 32°C      16 to 25°C
                          (61 to 90°F)    (61 to 77°F)
      
      In the summer it's not unusual to reach temperatures over 30°C in the house.

      There's also this story [2]:

      > I had a room full of servers, many with 16-36 disks per server and had an AC failure. Things turned off as planned, but it hit 115°F [46°C] for a bit. None of the disks died, majority of the tapes did.

      [1]: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/storage-deep-archive/1.3.1?topic...

      [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21066981

      • isomorphic 49 minutes ago
        Holy cow, thank you for this. On that same IBM[1] link, it reads:

        Maximum wet bulb temperature (Only LTO-8 and earlier cartridges) / Maximum Dew Point temperature (LTO-9 and later cartridges), all across the board, allowable / recommended / shipping: 26°C (79°F).

        In Florida, we like to refer to 79°F dew points as "Tuesday."

        More to the point, the time I want those LTO cartridges to earn their keep is during a disaster scenario. The most likely disaster scenario--other than fire--is hurricane. High temperature and humidity, and no power to run the HVAC to mitigate those. (Unless you have generators with fuel to run for days, and your HVAC, generators, and fuel tanks survived.)

      • linksnapzz 1 hour ago
        Anecdotal, but...

        I doubt that the recommended storage conditions for qic tapes were much different from the above; and I've seen a system boot from a qic-120 tape that had been kept in a non-climate controlled ministorage locker in Santa Fe NM for 17 years.

    • clhodapp 4 hours ago
      I've been thinking about different techniques for making my NAS backup-able to cold storage and... the thing that has given me pause with tape is how closed-down the ecosystem for the LTO drives themselves seems to be. What's your strategy for knowing you'll be able to access your tapes to transfer them forward to the next generation in 10-15 years when the tapes start reaching the end of their dependable life?
      • toast0 58 minutes ago
        > is how closed-down the ecosystem for the LTO drives themselves seems to be.

        Linear Tape Open is remarkably Open for an enterprise product with Open in the name.

        Personally, I feel like archival storage of personal digital data is not really solvable. I feel pretty confident about keeping my online storage going while I'm able. After that, there's nothing effective to preserve it when I'm gone. That's not a huge deal for me, I don't expect my heirs to want or need these things... Photobooks with annotations are more likely to last and have some chance of being apprechiated.

      • sekh60 3 hours ago
        Looks like I'm a bit out of date, but older generations of LTO drives were able to read tapes from up to two generations ago, and write tapes from one generation back. Looks like this isn't the case since LTO-8. It looks for 8 and 9 theycan read and write to tapes back one generation. 10 breaks the pattern and can only read LTO-10 tapes.

        https://www.lto.org/lto-generation-compatibility/

        • leptons 1 hour ago
          If you have money for LTO-10 drives and tapes, then backwards compatibility shouldn't really be a problem. The drive alone is $20,000 to $30,000. If you can afford an LTO-10 setup, then an array of lower LTO drives seems affordable.
      • wewtyflakes 4 hours ago
        Perhaps for some use-cases, the value of the data degrades at a rate proportional to its persistence layer, and doing a re-migration is not useful.
    • TheAmazingRace 4 hours ago
      I am also considering an LTO solution of some kind, but I also found out that LTO drives seemingly need some TLC and maintenance if you don’t want your tapes to jam up. I feel like at least with optical media, it’s nearly impossible to screw it up.

      I really wish a multi-terabyte optical media solution took off, because that would be the path I’d ultimately take, instead of going with expensive LTO devices and media.

      • leptons 1 hour ago
        I bought a used LTO5 tape drive from ebay, and I've been getting used LTO5 tapes. I've never had a problem. The tape drive lives out in my garage inside my backup server. I have a 10Gbit link so I can write 140MB/s over ethernet from the server inside the house. It works perfectly, has for years, nothing "jams up" (so far). I've had to use a tape drive cleaner cartridge once since I got this thing years ago for routine maintenance. I verify writes for anything important.

        Optical just didn't make sense to me. Overall it was way more expensive, and a lot slower to burn BluRay discs.

        The max BluRay disc size is 128GB (which is smaller than a lot of SD cards these days), and the fastest you can write to a BluRay disc is 18MB/s. That's a lot of of swapping discs to burn my many Linux distros.

        And those 128GB BluRay discs cost between $30 and $40 each. Used tapes (with a lot of life left in them) on ebay are far less expensive per TB - the lowest I've paid is about $1.40/TB for LTO5 tapes without a case. I typically pay about $4/TB for unused LTO5 tapes with a case on ebay. It's getting a bit more difficult to find those deals, but they come up every now and then.

        • pdntspa 55 minutes ago
          In bulk the 128gb blu ray discs aren't nearly as expensive -- I picked up a 25 pack for about $230 18 months ago

          The bigger problem is finding a drive that can read and write them -- the 128gb format support is a bit harder to find. I thought I would be good with my nice Pioneer BDRW drive but it didnt have the support so I had to buy an LG unit. So now my desktop has two BDRWs -- how very 2006!

    • m463 4 hours ago
      As a person instead of a company, can't you just buy a stack of hard drives instead of a stack of tapes?

      Even with the inflated prices nowadays 3tb 3.5" sata drives are cheaper than 2.5tb LTO-6 tapes.

      Personally I don't trust optical. I had some DVD-RW drives and many of them became unreadable after a very short time.

      (I don't know what the absolute vs practicate reliability factors are for any of these)

      EDIT: Hmmm... https://www.howtogeek.com/the-thousand-year-disc-that-failed...

      • aidenn0 4 hours ago
        FWIW both CD- and DVD-RW are less reliable than the read-only counterparts. M-Disc is supposedly very good.
      • pdntspa 54 minutes ago
        Blu-rays are way more durable than CDs and DVDs for some reason
      • leptons 1 hour ago
        I see several used LTO-6 tape sales on Ebay, for about $13 per tape. The cheapest used SAS drive I see is about $30. I'd trust a used tape over a used hard drive every time. Tapes have a 30 year life span, I can't imagine a hard drive would come close.
    • bob1029 2 hours ago
      The biggest advantage of LTO is that it's designed to be offline. Hard drives start to get weird when they've been sitting still for too long.
      • throw0101a 58 minutes ago
        > The biggest advantage of LTO is that it's designed to be offline.

        It's been a while since I did enterprise backup, but when I did, most backup software had a 'bootstrap procedure' that you could use even if you were completely destroyed.

        First, most enterprise software does not need a license for restorations, only for backups. In a disaster recovery scenario you're unlikely to have the keys.

        At end of every backup run/day, an e-mail is sent out with the tapes and offsets that have the indexes and configuration backups. You can send this message to an e-mail address that is separate from corporate e-mail (in case that gets wiped as well); back in the day you could send it to /dev/lp0 (and stick a copy in the box that the offsite tapes are transported in).

        So even if your entire infrastructure is wipe (e.g., see NotPetya and Maersk), there's still a starting point for restoring your restore-backup server, and rebuilding up your infrastructure.

        Remember: your backups have to be inaccessible to attackers.

  • qurren 2 hours ago
    > In case of a catastrophic fire for example, both the computer and backup drive could be destroyed.

    I just keep my offsite backup drives in my office drawer. There is a note on them that says they are personal backup and not to be plugged into company equipment. If you have an office this is probably the easiest solution.

    If a disaster wipes out my home and my office then there are bigger things to worry about than my data.

  • oasisbob 3 hours ago
    Sealed pelican case has decent precedent. A small regional bank I was aware of used basically this exact strategy. There were couriers going between branches daily, so it was easy to cross-ship a sealed DR/backup box to a remote branch every day. It stayed in the remote vault until its return journey
  • big85 6 hours ago
    Are Verbatim's M-Disc Blu-Rays still really M-Disc? There was something about how they changed the recipe a few years ago, and the counter-argument was that Blu-Ray discs are non-organic anyway, which was the main feature of M-Disc DVD.
    • jordand 5 hours ago
      There's very few companies now making new Blu-Ray drives too. Pioneer has supposedly stopped producing them, and the ASUS drive I bought earlier this year was one of the only SKUs on the market. Sony stopped producing high-capacity recordable BDXL discs too which means they aren't much of an option now for large backups.
    • ndiddy 5 hours ago
      If by "really M-Disc" you mean "substantially different from standard HTL BD-Rs", this has never been the case. See this review from when they first came out in 2015: https://goughlui.com/2015/10/16/review-tested-verbatim-lifet...

      > While the immediate burn quality seems relatively satisfactory, I was still not satisfied as to whether these discs were truly worth their premium over commodity blank media. Looking at the discs, it seemed that the recording layers were likely made of similar materials based on the visual aspect, unlike the obvious difference with DVDs. Also, it seemed that regular recorders were intended to be able to record to the BD-R’s (according to the Verbatim text).

      ...

      > Digging further around the M-disc site, it is noted that their section on longevity testing actually features no data about the BD-R discs at all. Indeed, if there were tests, the reports were not actually featured on the site at all. Further poking around in M-Disc Technology pages shows only references to their DVD products. In fact, it seems their patented “etched in stone” material may only apply to their DVD products.

      ...

      > From my research into the data, it seems likely that the M-Disc BD-R is not substantially different from other quality BD-R discs on the market as they all use inorganic recording compounds (with the exception of BD-R LTH of course). From a visual inspection, the disc appears the same bright chocolate-brown, unlike the obvious distinction with regular dye based DVDs and the M-Disc DVD which was a silver-grey. But my main concern lies in the demonstrated lifetimes of quality BD-Rs which are similar to the M-Disc DVD (to which the M-Disc BD-R is claimed to have also achieved). In essence, it appears that the MKM/Verbatim BD-R DL has already reached the same level of endurance as the M-Disc DVD had claimed without being “special” at all. It is thus, hard to justify paying more for an M-Disc BD-R, and I cannot really recommend it.

      The "not really M-Disc" stuff comes from a post somebody made on the "Data Hoarder" Reddit board a few years ago. The discs were changed to enable higher burning speeds which resulted in a slight difference in appearance, but he/she didn't seem to have realized that Blu-Ray M-Discs were never substantially different from BD-Rs and instead assumed that the tweaked discs were more of a scam than the originals.

  • antimora 5 hours ago
    Does anyone use it for family photo backup for generation to pass on? I am struggling to come up with a good back up solution that last ages.
    • ssl-3 3 hours ago
      If you want to pass stuff on stuff so it will last for ages, then: Get it done already. Print it, email it, post it somewhere and share links, have it framed and then delivered by a singing courier -- however it is done, then just do it and get it over with.

      Now it's their problem to take care of, ignore, make fun of, or whatever, which was always ultimately going to be the case anyway.

      This allows you to back with living your life while you still have one.

      There's little point to bothering with predicting what the future will look like after you're dead, and even less point to trying to influence how others will behave on your behalf.

    • everybodyknows 1 hour ago
      As others have suggested, photos of previous generations look a lot like strangers, absent a story connecting them across a lifetime, and ideally all the way to the present.

      The story furthermore must have enough intrinsic drama to engage readers, and fall into the hands of a writer with the skills to turn the raw facts into a biography.

      The biographic text provides a structure to hang the photos on, yielding a "photobiography". Search for the term and you'll find examples.

    • doublepg23 4 hours ago
      I love curating my photo library but after I kick the bucket I have to assume the number of photos that my future relatives care about will number in the dozens.
      • MarkusWandel 3 hours ago
        Same here. 240,947 photos in there right now and organized enough that I can find stuff (of course a single nice social gathering or outdoor adventure can be 100+ photos - cheap to store so why get too picky).

        So why is it that photos >20 years old just aren't that interesting any more? Because photos need to be augmented by memories, or by stories from others. Once they're just pictures... and once I'm gone... no more interest.

        We'd never throw out old physical photo albums. We have a cupboard full of them that my mom left behind. Some of the photos in them are of people we didn't even know, and now won't even know the names of. We keep them because we still have a little bit of connection to them - we knew the people to whom they were significant. But soon they'll just be landfill.

        That's how human memory must work. We can't have every generation leave behind hundreds of thousands of pictures, piling up forever. Memories of past generations get purged until 2-3 generations back they're forgotten.

        Of course there are exceptions to every rule. An uncle was persuaded to write his memoirs about his childhood on the farm in the middle of the last century. That will still be a good read after he, and those who knew him as a person, are gone. Assuming the books survive - it was a small, private printing only.

        • mycall 1 hour ago
          No large photo collection is complete until you plot all the photos with location on a map.
      • FlowingRiver 3 hours ago
        I've talked to many deceased estate cleaners over the years, I have seen them in action many times. The amount of stuff people want to keep from relatives is a rounding error of 0%.

        Whole lives of collecting sentimental goods all end up going in a giant bin, a whole house cleaned out in less than 2 hours. Photo albums are rarely kept, they just go in with it all and off to the tip usually in a single morning.

        What you think is important to you, is basically just trash to your relatives/kids. They will probably have want they want before you are gone.

    • jordand 5 hours ago
      Blu-ray drives are becoming increasingly rare sadly, so it's not great to hand over to others in the years ahead. An external hard disk drive kept safe and secure might be your only option. I had the same issue 6 years ago winding down my company and archiving data. Only sensible options were M-DISC and external hard disks.
      • what 2 hours ago
        Paper. There’s nothing you need to pass on after your death or to recover from disaster that can’t be printed to and recovered from paper.
    • WalterBright 5 hours ago
      Buy a new hard drive every year, make it your primary drive. The previous one becomes your backup.

      Or just keep it attached to your system, so spyware, adware, and the NSA will make free backups for you!

      • FlowingRiver 4 hours ago
        This has been my system for a while now. The funny side is that, I have yet to have a drive failure so the amount of local backups is getting silly.

        The other thing I did was I ended up collecting HDD's out of old DVR's people were throwing out. Those drives are used for cold storage but not for anything important because they already have tens of thousands of hours on them and in not the best temperature conditions. Again, non have failed yet.

        Funnily enough, the only HDD I have failing is a 2.1GB Quantum Fireball from 1997 in my Pentium 1! Really should swap that for an SD card via IDE.

        • WalterBright 2 hours ago
          I've had drive failures now and then. I once dropped a 10T drive on the floor. I thoroughly examined it, and it was not only merely dead, it was really most sincerely dead!
          • FlowingRiver 3 minutes ago
            Oh no, that is an awful IT horror story.
    • 8fingerlouie 4 hours ago
      I do this, alongside other methods.

      The problem with archiving data is you always need to be prepared to use the "next big thing" once your preferred method becomes unobtainable.

      I currently have :

      - Photos in iCloud (Live working copy)

      - Backup at home on NAS (updated nightly, snapshots)

      - Backup in pCloud (lifetime, mine or theirs, no illusions, hopefully lasts a couple of months if I die unexpectedly)

      - Yearly archive on external HDDs, identical copies stored in separate locations, clearly labeled "Photo backup". No encryption, no archiving, just plain APFS formatted drives that can be plugged into a computer and read.

      - Yearly archive M-disc blu-ray discs, again, identical copies, stored in separate locations. One disc per year labeled as such, ie. "Photo Backup 2020". The idea being you restore them in chronological order and have a complete set.

    • flippingheck 1 hour ago
      Am I unusual in not having looked at my parents or grandparents photo collections?

      I occasionally look at my own, but that's about it.

    • stronglikedan 1 hour ago
      Have you considered carving them into the walls of a pyramid?
    • canpan 4 hours ago
      For family photos, my solution is as follows:

      - A photo album extended with a curated set of photos each year. The real deal!

      - NAS at [my] home and blu-ray off site (parents home) for all photos

      Updated: added [my] for clarification

      • ggm 4 hours ago
        Your backup plan is to store the asset in [checks actuarial tables] the place most likely to be withdrawn first?
        • canpan 3 hours ago
          Sorry if it was not clear: The NAS is at my house but houses may burn down. THE discs are at my parents house for off-site backup. Like the sibling poster says, I would be the one going through the things anyway. But if unsure you can also ask a friend to keep them, one blu-ray can hold tons of photos and doesnt take much space.
          • ggm 3 hours ago
            Fair. Nothing is risk free. Move overseas, be more than 10 days away, other sibs have the burdens "we threw out those old unreadable backups Dad had stashed from his time at the computer center".. But your strategy isn't the worst by far. My 3-2-1 has 2 of the 3 in the same physical location. Not good.
        • ocdtrekkie 4 hours ago
          They probably will be the one going through their parents stuff and hopefully by the time its an issue can move it to their kids' place. Options for trusted free hosting are limited sometimes. ;)
    • comboy 5 hours ago
      get some used LTO-5 / LTO-6 drive if you have some desktop/server to plug it in
      • jordand 5 hours ago
        LTO tapes are the worst possible format for passing on family photos to family members. I dread to think of anyone in my family trying to setup an LTO drive when they barely understand how to use their smartphone.
        • comboy 5 hours ago
          I mean if you don't print them and want digital and we're talking having them for the next generation(s) then pretty much whatever current format you choose, it won't be the one that's widely used in the future so it will require some tech knowledge. And LTO tech stayed pretty settled and compatible for quite a few years now.
          • jordand 5 hours ago
            LTO drives/tape are not friendly, consumer grade technology. One look on a search engine, and it's all obscure refurbished server parts costing hundreds. The prices of them going forwards might increase sharply too and make it unviable...a bit like external hard drives right now. So yeah, printing everything out and hoping for the best is the only sensible option...
        • cyberax 4 hours ago
          There are companies that can read the tapes for you, especially for a one-off transfer.

          This is an _additional_ layer of backups, on top of the usual iCloud/whatever things. LTO is certainly not user-friendly, but neither is it especially user-hostile.

          And I think I trust tapes far better than any other alternative for long-term storage as they have by far the smallest areal density of information compared to disks (hard or optical).

          I have DVD disks that are barely 10 years old and that I can't read anymore. Hard drives also die in storage and/or during transport.

          • ggm 4 hours ago
            These companies charge a megabuck. Maintaining the drives doesn't come cheap. I am (like other ageing former mainframe operatives) the holder of a variety of tape forms, and nobody local wants the hassle of giving me a bitstream, without significant vig. Like thousands.

            Recently the computer museum helped recover early 1970s unix tapes. It was a big deal.

            • cyberax 2 hours ago
              I got introduced to LTO by needing to read several tapes with archival data. It was pretty cheap, around $200 back around 2014. I can certainly believe that the old mainframe tapes are way more trouble.

              And let's not exaggerate the complexity of setting up external tape drives, even on Windows/macOS.

        • iAMkenough 5 hours ago
          My grandkids AI robot will figure it out for them, right?
          • kjs3 4 hours ago
            Your grandkids will just say "make me some memories" and their AI will look at your posting history and gen up some fresh new ancestors very similar to the originals.
    • fortran77 3 hours ago
      Each year I select about 100 representative photos and get a photo book printed. It’s not a perfect solution but at least they might get something to see 100 years from now.
  • zitterbewegung 3 hours ago
    Having long-term backups like this I wonder if bundling a known-working Blu-ray reader or even a combination writer is a good idea. Hypothetically a reader would be hard to come by. With a reader I would either need a adapter to make it work.
  • oconnore 5 hours ago
    I'm surprised this is not more common. I have been doing this since 2016 (started with DVDs and quickly moved to Bluray since writable DVDs are more prone to failure).
    • cnrcode 5 hours ago
      Do you periodically re-read the old discs to check them? I burn a par2 recovery set (around 10 percent) onto each disc alongside the data, and once a year run a full verify with dvdisaster or just par2 verify. A disc that starts throwing correctable errors gets re-burned while it can still be read cleanly, which matters more to me than the rated lifetime of any single disc.
  • ocdtrekkie 6 hours ago
    100% everything here. That level of tamper evidence should be good enough for the reasonable individual, IMHO.

    On the enterprise scale, the question I think everyone should be asking is: Do they have LTO tapes on a shelf? Fundamentally the same issue (but larger), in terms of needing to ensure it's physically separate, and secure, and tamper evident. =)

    Anything in the cloud or connected to your network can be hacked. The backup of last resort must be on a shelf.

    • kjs3 4 hours ago
      Do they have LTO tapes on a shelf?

      Most enterprise gigs I've worked sent them to Iron Mountain or equivalent.

  • jew-and-proud 2 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • binauralbeats 3 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • sosuke 5 hours ago
    Now that I'm at ~$350 a year on Backblaze I need to look at this again. Or the LTO-6 tapes.
  • hn_submit 6 hours ago
    This seems a little over the top to me.

    Just use a magnetic hard disk and your data will be fine for many decades if not centuries. You don't need M-Blu Rays (which have very limited capacity anyway). A hard disk is cheap and stores several Terabytes.

    You obviously need to store the data in a physically remote place like your shed, car or safe deposit box in case your house burns down.

    Never, ever use a SSD if you want your data to be safe for any amount of time. What's worse, SSDs can fail unexpectedly with almost zero chance of data recovery.

    • csnover 5 hours ago
      > Just use a magnetic hard disk and your data will be fine for many decades if not centuries.

      A few months ago I needed to pull from an offline backup. The disk, which used CMR and was purchased new from an actual computer supply company (i.e. not Amazon), was burnt in for about 72 hours before it was loaded up with data and shoved in a padded box. Ten years later, the drive was pulled, and there were so many media surface errors that most of the data was unrecoverable. (I haven’t bothered opening the drive to see if there is some obvious sign of what exactly failed.)

      In my case the backups were created in multiples using two different brands for exactly this reason, and the second copy was fine. But I wouldn’t say it’s the case a single magnetic disk can take the place of BD.

      Mechanical disks are also getting expensive. The disk purchased to replace the failed backup was being sold at three times its original release MSRP. Some of this is due to the AI hysteria but some of it is also that the market is shrinking and becoming K-shaped.

      • Dylan16807 2 hours ago
        Oh for sure don't trust any single copy. But I wonder, how many surface errors? How much of the data would have been lost if all your drives degraded that much?

        For example, if most files are multiple gigabytes, the drive has 3 million tracks, and 3 thousand of those tracks are ruined: one degraded copy leads to most files being broken, two degraded copies leads to only a single digit number of files being broken, and three degraded copies means >99% odds of recovering everything.

        And with the magic of par2 files, a single drive with a couple percent of corrupted tracks can be fully recoverable. Any cold backup I do gets some of those.

    • 1potato 5 hours ago
      Tell that to my circa-2000s WD MyBook that clicks and fails to initialize after ~17 years in climate-controlled storage in its original packaging. I'm about to attempt surgery on the heads to see if I can get it going again.

      I also have a binder full of DVD-Rs, of about the same age and containing mostly the same data, that all read perfectly with no issues.

      You're asking for trouble if you count on just one backup solution to keep your data safe.

    • kjs3 4 hours ago
      Just use a magnetic hard disk and your data will be fine for many decades if not centuries.

      Comically untrue, and trivial to verify that it is.

      You obviously need to store the data in a physically remote place like your shed, car

      Let's make it worse by keeping them someplace with terrible environmentals.

      If you're gonna be wrong, don't be just a little wrong...

    • StrLght 5 hours ago
      > Just use a magnetic hard disk and your data will be fine for many decades if not centuries

      It is absolutely not safe for many decades. If you haven't encountered any drive failures yet — you're lucky.

      > A hard disk is cheap and stores several Terabytes

      You should check prices again, I wouldn't say cheap considering price bump during the last year (or around so). M-Disks are way less convenient, but pretty reasonable for their cost.

    • mk_stjames 4 hours ago
      Even if perfectly held still in a sealed box with perfect conditions, hard disk drives need controllers; they need the chipset to drive them, which has ROM and other stored microcode that is susceptible to bit flips due to cosmic ray impingement. I've traced faults in a few 20+ year old HDD's due to failed controllers likely due to such loss (either in the main controller fail, a ROM/BIOS chip fail, or less likely but still possible the cache IC, or motor controller). The data is there on the spinning rust, you just won't have a way to access it.

      The failure of SSD's you warn of and the way the HDD's fail due to a dead controller aren't that different.

      This won't happen with a physically written media like a CD, DVD, or Blu Ray disc. With physical media, you're separating out the media from the reader (the drive). If your disc reader dies or you cant find it, etc, you can go find any another one on ebay even decades from now, very likely.

      Doing surgery on an HDD controller PCB to replace a dead controller, while possible, sucks, and may be incredibly difficult if not impossible to source parts for in the future.

    • comboy 5 hours ago
      Offline HDDs are not a reliable long term data storage. Not even for a few years.
    • rcxdude 4 hours ago
      Hard drives are a safe option if you keep them redundant, online, and scrub them regularly. They are not a good long-term offline archive format.
    • wmf 5 hours ago
      Hard disks aren't even rated for one decade.
    • RachelF 6 hours ago
      Hard drives are way bigger, but M-Disk is more reliable for very long term storage.
      • daneel_w 6 hours ago
        I use a 2.5" drive. I find them ideal. But then again my backup footprint isn't double-digit terabytes.
    • OtomotO 6 hours ago
      With the decline in quality I am no longer confident my HDDs are actually a save backup strategy.

      I have so many photos of vacations and people who I've buried over the years, that I don't want to lose.

      So I was thinking about using Blu-ray M-Disks as well, these last couple of months.